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 Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good

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Drakon
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PostSubject: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:34 am

There's so many awesome classic arcade games I come across on youtube or forums. But usually when I load one of these games into an emulator the difficulty is clearly programmed just to kill me fast and take all of my money. These games generally leave me feeling unsatisfied because they're just so difficult that they're no longer fun. I'm wondering what arcade games people here think are unfair and would have been awesome if they were more toned down. I'll start the ball rolling by including a classic....final fight. That's right...I find final fight clearly geared to just taking my money.


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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:10 am

This will be an interesting thread hmmm. I think Gradius 3 for arcade is WAY to hard, would have been great if they toned it down. The SNES version for example is far superior for that reason, the difficulty is satisfactory.

I agree with Final Fight, it's definitely geared that way. I hate beat 'em ups where you basically just have to mash buttons hoping you will hit the boss because you can't possibly hit the boss and avoid, they must always hit you. Crime Fighters is an example of this argh some of those bosses are too frustrating!
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:09 am

glenn101 wrote:
This will be an interesting thread hmmm. I think Gradius 3 for arcade is WAY to hard, would have been great if they toned it down. The SNES version for example is far superior for that reason, the difficulty is satisfactory.

I agree with Final Fight, it's definitely geared that way. I hate beat 'em ups where you basically just have to mash buttons hoping you will hit the boss because you can't possibly hit the boss and avoid, they must always hit you. Crime Fighters is an example of this argh some of those bosses are too frustrating!

Yeah. That's why my favourite beat'em'up is streets of rage 2 because you're really in control of what happens in that game. Streets of rage 3 was a step backwards into more of the mashing type of game which is why it's not nearly as popular. I also find most arcade games (and even console games) by irem are wayyyyy too hard. My dragon breed arcade board is ultra hard even when I set it to the easiest difficulty. And my holy diver famicom cart is wayyy too hard, possibly one of the hardest nes / famicom games ever. It's a real shame because otherwise these games are AMAZING. I even find ninja baseball batman too hard.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:17 pm

My favorite beat 'em up is Vendetta for the same reason you mentioned, the control is excellent.
I myself respect the difficulty in Irem games, the difference in the difficulty in their games is that you can master them - it just takes a lot of practice. They didn't create games that were impossible to finish in 1 credit.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:34 pm

glenn101 wrote:
My favorite beat 'em up is Vendetta for the same reason you mentioned, the control is excellent.
I myself respect the difficulty in Irem games, the difference in the difficulty in their games is that you can master them - it just takes a lot of practice. They didn't create games that were impossible to finish in 1 credit.

I seriously beg to differ. Anytime I read reviews about the arcade version of dragon breed people complained that it's too hard. Any game is possible to "master" but most of these games aren't worth the effort that's why they fell into obscurity and never hit mainstream popularity. I've read reviews where people mention irem games being too hard. I mean an one of my favourite games is ketsui....but ketsui is f#cking hard as hell, again stopping it from becoming popular. The great thing about ketsui is it's a highly strategical shmup so it's actually fun to master (atleast to me it is). Difficulty is a hard balance. Too difficult and it turns people off, too easy and also that'll turn players off.

Put it this way, I've always been much more skilled at games than most players. Yet a lot of these quarter sucking arcade games I find to be too difficult to bother with. If I took the time yes I could figure these games out but most of them aren't fun enough to bother with. Why ketsui appeals to me is there's so many different things you can do it's much more complicated than just "attack" and "dodge".

I've renamed this thread into "video games that're too difficult for their own good". I think this's a great topic as what's "too difficult" is up for judgement. A great example of "too difficult for its own good" is streets of rage 3. If you go on youtube you'll find maybe 1 playthrough of SOR3, yet you'll find endless playthroughs of SOR2. SOR2 clearly wins in popularty....why? Because the difficulty is perfectly balanced for what you're able to do in the game. I don't expect something like ketsui to ever become as popular as SOR2 because ketsui takes a lot more to learn and it's right on the edge of being ALMOST too difficult, extremely close to it but so perfect. Ketsui would be like the fine vintage wine that only brilliant gamers would appreciate. SOR2 is more like the more popular / easy to enjoy brand.

I'm sure there's people who're hardcore enough to enjoy irem games and other ultra difficult games (I've seen youtube videos of people 1 credit clearing the arcade version of the tmnt games...that's nuts). Speaking of the tmnt arcade games that's another example. The first tmnt was a hit in the arcades...only because of the 4 player coop mode. By the time the second tmnt game came out in the arcade the whole coop gimmick had run its course and nobody cared because these games are too difficult and just sucked away all of your money.

I understand that you respect the difficulty in irem games but if they had been easier irem would have been a much bigger hit. I love my holy diver carts but I'll be damned if I ever clear one of them. If you ever watch the TAS playthrough of holy diver by the last stages the game is just completely unfair. For a console game holy diver SHOULD have a difficulty level. I had a hard time clearing SOR3 on easy yet the stupid game tells me to try a harder difficulty and doesn't give me the real ending...screw that.

Then there's the tmnt nes games. The first tmnt game is too hard...and it's not so great....hence it's downfall. Tmnt 2 was the most playable one we got but still a bit too hard. And tmnt 3 was almost as fun as tmnt 2 yet for some reason it's even harder than tnmt 2. The odd thing is...the japanese release of tmnt 2 on the nes is a bit easier than the american version making it more fun. And the japanese release of tmnt 3 on the famicom is WAY easier than the american version (difficulty select and you can change amount of lives per continue). Hell if the game is toned down for the japanese market OBVIOUSLY it's too difficult to begin with.

It's rare that I enjoy a game where the smallest mistake basically ruins everything. Rarely do I find a game that's good enough to put up with that. I honestly wish irem had made their games easier because their games are pretty awesome except for the difficulty.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:06 am

Each to their own. That's their opinion that Dragon Breed is too hard, I don't think it is too difficult at all, in fact I think it's one of the easiest Irem games. For me the difficult Irem games that come to mind are Image fight and one particular section of R-type (the seventh stage is so tedious at the checkpoint with the ridiculous enemy patterns and swarm of bullets flying everywhere, it can easily put people off). But yes, of course if their games were easier they would appeal to a wider audience.

The new title is more appropriate indeed, everyone has a different perception of difficulty levels in games. TMNT for arcade was definitely an example of a game too difficult for it's own good, it's unfairly difficult. Ghost's and Goblin's is a game that comes to mind that is incredibly difficult, I think that game is too difficult for it's own good, they got it right with Ghoul's and Ghosts.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:10 am

glenn101 wrote:
Each to their own. That's their opinion that Dragon Breed is too hard, I don't think it is too difficult at all, in fact I think it's one of the easiest Irem games. For me the difficult Irem games that come to mind are Image fight and one particular section of R-type (the seventh stage is so tedious at the checkpoint with the ridiculous enemy patterns and swarm of bullets flying everywhere, it can easily put people off). But yes, of course if their games were easier they would appeal to a wider audience.

The new title is more appropriate indeed, everyone has a different perception of difficulty levels in games. TMNT for arcade was definitely an example of a game too difficult for it's own good, it's unfairly difficult. Ghost's and Goblin's is a game that comes to mind that is incredibly difficult, I think that game is too difficult for it's own good, they got it right with Ghoul's and Ghosts.

Hah that's funny ghouls and ghosts I can't be bothered with either. Ghouls and ghosts is popular in a niche way but again...it never gained the mega popularity of a lot of other games. Man...seriously....play holy diver and "wtf?" yourself until your head explodes. Holy diver gives you unlimited lives and continues...and even with that it's neverending pain. Anyway I think this's going to be an epic console mods topic for sure.

Most contra games are too hard for their own good....the only one I ever cleared was contra 3.

Really though somehow between the arcade version and the nes port tmnt went from "button mashy mashy" into an actually playable game:



My oh-so unpopular playthrough but it gets the point across about it actually being playable. I PREFER the nes version over the arcade just because of the playability. Even though the arcade version has way more powerful hardware and majorly improved graphics and sound, somehow the nes feels more like a "game" rather than "test your luck!"

Really the best games are the ones that're right on the edge of being "almost too difficult for its own good". A good example of this is "zoda's revenge". I know it sounds silly but zoda's revenge feels very balanced to me.

With my street fighter arcade hacks I brought the single player difficulty down from the original game. Granted if you don't know the moves and other things the game will rape you, I guess I wanted to compensate for the learning curve players would have to endure.

I've also change to title to "games that're too difficult / easy for their own good". There's plenty of nintendo games that I love to bits but man...some of them are just way too easy. Example: The final boss fight in super metroid. And in zelda link to the past once you learn all the tricks and collect all the powerups the game is a joke.

I don't know why...I find the first duck tales too difficult to bother with. Yet duck tales 2 I played through to the end.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:00 am

Hmmm, Holy Diver eh? I've heard of it but had never seen it in action, just checked out a youtube video of it - I'm intrigued, it looks like a good game. If I ever get the game I'll give it a go, see how hard it is, I'm sure your right as it is Irem after all so it's expected haha.

Ah yes you showed me that play through before in another thread, it looks awesome. Yeah I agree about the too easy for their own good I hate when in a game for example they make a ridiculously easy last boss (Gradius series), it's just a let down, I want it to be a challenge.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:12 pm

glenn101 wrote:
Hmmm, Holy Diver eh? I've heard of it but had never seen it in action, just checked out a youtube video of it - I'm intrigued, it looks like a good game. If I ever get the game I'll give it a go, see how hard it is, I'm sure your right as it is Irem after all so it's expected haha.

Ah yes you showed me that play through before in another thread, it looks awesome. Yeah I agree about the too easy for their own good I hate when in a game for example they make a ridiculously easy last boss (Gradius series), it's just a let down, I want it to be a challenge.

Yeah for sure some challenge is better than no challenge
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:09 am

Mr. Bones is far too difficult for it's own good. It's quite a strange game on the Saturn, Some levels are really easy but most are difficult and unintuitive---they take some time to figure out. It was also one of the first games I ever played, along with I believe Virtual On. I played it at my mother's friends house in 1997.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:41 am

AlecRob wrote:
Mr. Bones is far too difficult for it's own good. It's quite a strange game on the Saturn, Some levels are really easy but most are difficult and unintuitive---they take some time to figure out. It was also one of the first games I ever played, along with I believe Virtual On. I played it at my mother's friends house in 1997.

I suppose this's why I've never even heard of "mr bones" haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:36 pm

Battletoads for the NES. I never played this game as a kid, so after recently getting my N8 Everdrive flashcart, my brother and I decided to give it a go. We're huge Double Dragon II fans (one of my favourite NES games), and always hearing Battletoads cited on best of lists for NES beat-em-ups (or in general "best of"  lists for that matter), we had high hopes.

First of all, this game is NOT a beat-em-up. Anyone who thinks so is nuts. This game is a f*#k-you-up. %85 of the game seems to be the most mind-numbingly mundane forced scrolling "see if you can dodge this" bullshit.

The beat-em-up portions are painfully easy (albeit fun), but laughably short. The rest of the gameplay is comprised of ridiculously punishing scrolling obstacle courses. The requisite lives that you start with make this game impossible to complete-period. Battletoads doesn't reward good gaming, but instead forces you to agonizingly memorize/ execute exceptionally long passages of twitch gaming.

Add on top of that the reality that 2-player co-op puts you at a DISADVANTAGE (wtf?) with not only friendly fire, but stage restarts if either player dies. That's right, BOTH players have to SIMULTANEOUSLY perfectly execute those long-ass passages, otherwise sucker, you're going nowhere. Even with Game Genie infinite lives enabled, this game is exceptionally aggravating to complete. My brother and I gave up at stage 8 when we became too drunk/tired to continue.

I love hard games, and have beaten pretty much all of the popular ones for the NES- I consider myslef more than equipped to tackle any game labeled as hard.

Ninja Gaiden is a difficult game with responsive controls and rewarding gameplay. The same thing can be said about the first Megaman, which I hear a lot of people complain about. Fundamentally, Battletoads fits the spirit of this thread- it's FAR too hard for it's own good, and more importantly always to me, just not worth it.  A big letdown after always hearing about it.

On a side note, Kirby for the NES is way too easy for it's own good. Personally, that's always kept Kirby from that "elite" category of NES games for me, even though it executes everything else amazingly well (except for music maybe).
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:11 pm

Good example, I didn't get far in battletoads because I don't find it all that fun.  The first megaman really isn't hard at all.  When I think of stupidly difficult I think of zelda 2.  Even collecting every powerup in the game I couldn't get anywhere close to the last boss in zelda 2.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:35 pm

Funny you should cite that Drakon, Zelda II is for me is another example of a cart that I always heard was notoriously hard (might have dicked around with it once or twice as a kid, finally sat down to play it last year). Personally, I enjoyed the hell out of it (underrated imo), and while hard (some surprisingly deep combat there) I never found it frustrating nor unfairly difficult. The last temple is certainly long and confusing, but you could say the same thing for the whole of the Metroid over-world- and I love that game!

The only real criticism I can level against Zelda II is that the health & magic upgrades are not optional- as you know you NEED to find all of them in order to progress at the end, with some being a little obtuse. I can forgive that, as a lot of NES carts have what I call Nintendo Power moments, shit you wouldd never be able to pass back in the day, unless your cousins buddies girlfriends brother told you how.

Chip N Dales is another game that everyone knows is unfortunately too easy, which is a shame, as it is a great 2 player CapcomÉDisney game.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:47 pm

I can't even make it to the last temple haha.  Maybe I'm doing something very wrong.  I gave up on the first metroid as a kid since every time I lost to mother brain I'd have to spend hours building up my health and missiles just to die again.  I finally cleared the original metroid recently with the romhack that adds the ability to save your game and even gives you a map.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:20 am

Hopefully that Metroid Romhack is fixed, or somehow made compatible with the N8 Everdrive- it's awesome. Not only can you obviously save, but the saved health and especially the combined wave and ice beams make it a big upgrade for me. I got screwed on my first playthrough by getting the wave beam AFTER the ice beam, which made the ending zone with those damn metroids nigh impossible!

The lack of the map in Metroid is key imo to create that atmosphere of existential isolation in an alien landscape- it's not NES Metroid unless you're lost and scared!

As an aside Drakon, I've seen that you frequent Krikzz.com. I'd love  if Krikzz could implement the FM channels for the FDS. Metroid (and Kid Icarus's) opening title screen compositions are amongst my all time 8-bit favourites- check em out if you haven't heard them (listen to that ending of the Metroid title screen theme- amazing!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08wyrAYMrs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGFC5pG8Kdc

If/when Krikzz implements Famicom/FDS audio for the N8, I'll be soliciting you to do the mod on my NES toaster, seeing that I'm in Toronto also!

It would be sweet if Krikzz could add that FM sound for the Master System as well- I had a hankering to play Phantasy Star for the first time...
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:21 am

Yes I have the metroid romhack fix sitting on my computer I got in contact with someone who fixed it (I think it was the romhack author).  I don't know if it's been uploaded yet but he sent me the fixed version privately.

I like the "lost and scared" feeling of metroid games however the first metroid is too easy to get lost.

The FDS sound channel is wavetable according to wikipedia not fm.  You can also stick a youtube video right into yout post instead of using just a link by clicking the "you tube" button in the post editor.  The n8 already has fds audio but it's off key:



Recreating an analog audio signal with fpga is really difficult.  FPGA is meant for digital things not analog.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:57 pm

Battletoads would have to be one of the games that frusterated me the most. It was controller-throwing-at-tv-or-wall difficult.

I dont know how many times i did that before i gave it away.

I dont remember exactly but that might be when i got a game genie.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:43 am

I'm not the most "internet savvy" person, thanks for pointing out the YouTube embed video function.

I'll have to check romhacking.net to see if the Metroid Hack has been updated to work on the N8 Everdrive- good looking out.

Thanks for the info regarding the famicom/FDS channels. It's a little disheartening to hear that it will be difficult for the N8 Everdrive to emulate those analog channels, hopefully Krikzz can do it.

I suppose that's why the GameCube seems to be easy to function with FPGA, as it's apparently completely digital, right? Maybe Krikzz or someone could turn a quick profit by manufacturing a flashcart for it if it's that simple, I'd certainly want one.
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PostSubject: Re: Video games that're too difficult / easy for their own good   Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:00 am

There already is a device for the gamecube:

http://16bitgamer.canadian-forum.com/t274-opencube-gamecube

There's a version of the metroid hack that works on the n8 I got in contact with the author and he sent it to me.  I don't know if it's been posted yet or not.  According to tiido yes the gamecube is all digital which is why it was easy to make a fpga device for it.
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